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Author Topic: Submittal: Backup Guns  (Read 1171 times)

Barry in IN

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« on: November 22, 2010, 12:48:27 PM »

What do you think about an article on backup guns?  
I think it pertains to American Survival.  I know you can pick up any gunzine and find three articles on them any given month, but they are usually about how to choose one.  
I was thinking about justification for them.  

Malfunction insurance for one.  I can name just about every type of gun that I've seen or had fail in some way.  They all crap out sometime.
 
A big reason I carry them is so I can always reach a gun.  With guns spread around my person, I have at least one gun within reach of a hand no matter what position or situation I find myself in.

I find I can get Gun #2 going quicker than I can reload Gun #1.  I didn't believe it until I checked on the timer.  I've check regularly, and I always can.
 
You don't need to be able to buy some miracle alloy snub in .357 Hydramax either.  If all you have is a single shot .22 derringer to stick in your pocket to backup the daily carry gun, then use it.  It beats nothing, which is what most people use, and what they will have when lint fouls the main gun or their broken wrist won't let them get it out of the holster.

Let me know what you think.  
If you want, I'll whip something up.  
This is a polarizing topic.  A lot of people who wouldn't consider pouring their morning coffee without their .45 on their belt think carrying a second gun is insanely paranoid.  Go figure.
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Josh in TX

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 04:56:32 PM »

I always learn something from ya Barry so I say go for it.  Imm already sold on the idea but I'd still be up for the read. I carry my TRP in a DM Bullard Dual Carry IWB and an SP101 either in my weakside pocket or on my ankle if shoes permit. I also carry 4 spare Wilson Combat 8 round magazines for a total of 46 rounds, 41 .45 and 5 .357mag. HST ammo by the way, 230 grain +P.  In the strong pocket is a 6" Cold Steel Tanto Blade and a Streamlight PT-1L.
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Col. Craig

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 07:02:05 PM »

Sick'm Barry!

Another reason I like to have a backup gun is I can hand it off to someone with experience but otherwise unarmed.  Not necessarily during a gunfight either.  For example, in a "Hypothetical" situation lets say I visit a friend or family member.  During my visit I learn they are menaced by fear of a criminal element in their neighborhood.  I suggest they get a gun, they are open to the idea and willing to do this.  In the meantime I leave them my backup.  I go on my way still armed with my primary firearm and will retrieve my backup later.
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Barry in IN

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 09:16:11 PM »

I do that a lot, too.  My wife won't/can't carry a gun for a variety of reasons, yet I couldn't begin to count how many times I've left a gun with her.  It's usually during a highway rest stop when we are taking turns one of us using the restroom while the other stays with the kids.  
I consider myself my wife's gun bearer.

But yes, I've used that point a lot.  It's a good counter to the wiseguy who says "Whatcha carry all them guns fer?  Ya can't shoot but one atta time."  (I could...)  No, but I can hand one to my wife and now we can both shoot.
My wife usually can't carry a gun, but if I have two guns, we can have two guns between us.  

When my dad was still alive, he and mom spent their last few years living by a highway which concerned them after living back off the road for years.   Sometimes, there would be an article in the paper or something that would spook them enough that I left a "spare" with him after an evening visit (until he kept one for good).   If I had to go home and get him one, even though it was three minutes away, he wouldn't have taken it.   But knowing I was just handing over an "extra" was OK with him.
I had a heck of a time finding that thing after he died, by the way.  I knew once I found it, it would be in some simple or obvious place, and it was: Under a hat in the hall closet.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 09:18:20 PM by Barry in IN »
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Barry in IN

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 10:13:44 PM »

I do intend to do this.  I just haven't had time.  If it's not one thing it's another.
The latest thing happened to our oldest daughter, since she doesn't have enough to deal with (she's the one with Asperger's Syndrome).  It's looking like she has Whooping Cough.

Whooping damn cough.
That's stuff my grandpa used to talk about.
It's been going around, so it was bound to arrive here.
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Col. Craig

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Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 11:04:53 PM »

No rush Barry.  We've got some things we can post -  Its just a matter of Lew or I getting one of those round toits.

I'm see'n a few of those bygone ailments making a return.
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Barry in IN

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2017, 07:00:44 AM »

Just a thought that came up in a night shooting class I had a couple of weekends ago.

If you use you "main" gun, then shoot your backup, which should you top off first? 

Opinions vary, as usual, but I think the consensus is you take care of the backup first.  Again, opinions vary as to why, but my best reason is because I've just shown that it's the gun I now have to depend on.  I'll load and/or try to clear Gun #1 after I have the backup ready.

You might be surprised how many people want to start trying to fix the dead gun ASAP after things seem settled.   Unlike many things, I can understand where this one comes from. I'm thinking it's human nature to fix things. 
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Lew

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2017, 11:59:01 AM »

Practice reloading your primary untill you can reload it as fast as drawing a backup gun. Then when when fecal matter hits the rotary air impeller, shoot the primary dry and only then drop to the back up gun.

This should not even be a real question.
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Barry in IN

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2017, 12:55:17 PM »

We may be talking about different things here. 

I see people go to the backup for whatever reason, use it, then start jacking with the primary to get it going.  Even if they went to the BUG because the primary failed, they automatically start fiddling with the primary.  Meanwhile, the functioning gun stays partially loaded.  All the attention is on Gun #1 regardless of whether it can be saved or not. 

And that comes from practicing it.   Or from not practicing to avoid it. 

Granted, if the BUG was used because the primary went dry, it might be better in that case to top the primary off.   But now we've made it a situational thing and thrown a decision into the mix.  Do I do "A" or "B"?
I'd rather these kinds of manipulations happen subconsciously without having decisions to make.  There will be enough going on that I don't want my attention divided away from the other stuff. 

I guess a simpler way to say what I was trying to say is:
Reload the gun you shot last.

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Lew

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2017, 01:52:20 PM »

Which is what I said.

It is all a what if game and that will lead to training and practice.

The best thing we can practice is situational awareness and never get into the situation which requires any training.

The old, " if I need a gun to go there, I don't go there..."

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Barry in IN

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 02:53:26 PM »

I think I confused myself.   
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Col. Craig

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2017, 05:06:24 PM »

The little training I've had with this is to keep working with the primary firearm until it becomes a club.  Also, if the primary firearm is abandoned it will be left without ammunition (unless the magazine is jammed into the well leading to it becoming a club). 

I read a story long time ago, I think it was from Massad Ayoob, about training a very small police department with their standard duty revolvers.  Figure this is probably in the late '70's or early '80's.  He went in as a highly renowned guest trainer and half the cops were excited to have him and the other half were nervous they'd screw up.  So he goes in, does one live fire exercise, and then they do classroom for the next couple hours, break for lunch, have a review, and spend the afternoon with trigger time until everyone has had their fill.  He has everybody in lined up in full cop street-fighter deployment gear and they are ready to draw and unload into the target. 

So it is ten minutes into the class and they are at the range, he tells them to empty all but one bullet from their two speed loaders.  Next they are to hand their revolver to their neighbor who will remove three random rounds and close the cylinder before returning the gun.  Everyone looks concerned but they follow the instructions.  Okay, they only have 5 rounds - 3 in the gun and 1 each in the two speed loaders.  With everyone ready to shoot he tells them to draw and fire putting something like 10 rounds into the paper inside of 20 seconds (I forget the details but this is how the exercise worked).  "FIRE!" 

Ayoob is doing the exercise with them.  He pulls the trigger six times even though it took less than six squeezes to hit the three rounds.  Then he does a reload with the speed loader and again pulls the trigger six times, then he reloads again and pulls the trigger six times.  Finally he DROPS his revolver, pulls out his backup (I forget what it was) and put another 5 shots into the paper. 

He was finished before the next guy had begun his 2nd reload.

I remember him talking about the discussion among the class about knowing they only had three shots in the gun so they when they got the third shot they had to stop and think, 'was that three?'.  They always train with six - Ayoob squeezed the trigger six times while the rest of the class was trying to count shots fired instead of trigger pulls.  Nobody ever thought about pulling out the backup pistol - they were all hung up on picking up the bullets they had removed and loading those.  He was saying most of the time nobody pulls out the backup pistol because they are so focused on the removed bullets at the start of the exercise!

Everyone shoots semi-auto nowadays but there might still be a good lesson in there for what it is worth.
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Barry in IN

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Re: Submittal: Backup Guns
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 05:30:34 PM »

I've seen that in carbine classes.  The carbine craps out (by plan or for real) and the shooter stands there fiddling with the club even though the target might be ten steps away.   If lucky, they can clear it in five seconds- about three more seconds than they could shoot it with the pistol they've been carrying around. 

If the student is extra unlucky, this happens within a couple hours of going over carbine/pistol transitions. 
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Can't we all just get a long gun?